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klingon sex

is this thing that we do about violence? this is the question that has been trotting in the playground of my mind for the last few days. some, i think, yes. but is it "fundamentally" about violence? when i posed this question to a list, one of the answers was "we hurt each other so of course it is about violence." it is not near as simple as that. fundamentally? no, i think not. fundamentally, rarely is violence even about violence. it draws from a place within the mind and manifests itself through violence, but it isn't about it. yet, if this is the case, does it mean violence is manifested through our acts of sadomasochism? or that sadomasochism is manifested through our desires for violence? or does it really matter which it is if the violence is consensual violence?
i was fascinated to read a study in Psychosomatic Medicine not long ago on a fairly new disorder called "violent sleep sex". the patients ranged from making sexual sounds in their sleep, to periods of violent masturbation and six men and one woman who made violent sexual advances on their partners. interesting. of course, from a scientific frame of mind, we treat the "disease" with valium or some such drug and lock it away in its damp little mental cell. but is there more here?
in our lifestyle we have a venue for violence. we can approach it in a healthy manner...some of us can even accept it as a need. this allows us to bypass the disassociation process that criminal violent sex offenders go through. barring consensuality, i wonder if it is the only thing that does. a criminal begins with fantasies that escalate to behavior. the crime becomes the live videotape of his fantasies in which the victim plays the main role. parallel with what we do, so far. next, the criminal plays on his fantasy to feed his control. by integrating a victim into his fantasy he controls the scene therein. In Mass Murder, America's Growing Menace, Levin and Joy say, "Domination unmitigated by guilt is a crucial element in serial crimes with a sexual theme. Not only does sadistic sex-- consensual or forcible --express the power of one person over another, but in serial homicides, murder enhances the killers sense of control over his victims." with me so far? same, consensual or not, right? but i think the line that separates "them" from "us" begins at disassociation. violent sex offenders knows this type of behavior is not socially acceptable, so it becomes almost another personality (but not split personality disorder...it is intentional and almost genuisly so), while the "normal" personality is perfectly socially acceptable. so much so, that we are often surprised how "normal" these offenders appeared....your next door neighbor, teacher, a social worker....
ok, surely there are many other distinctions between an SMer and a violent sexual offender. but, my point (i think) is we don't want to admit that violence is a part of what we do because it is too close to criminal sexual violence. however, criminal sexual violence isn't about violence either. it is about control...so are we.

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( 20 comments — Leave a comment )
jdquintette
Mar. 29th, 2011 11:05 pm (UTC)
I dunno. For me the deal breaker is consent. I'm not turned on by dominating women, I'm turned on by women who are sexually excited by being dominated. Capiche?

Maybe that dynamic is what allows me to express violent sexual urges, or would if I could ever find a kinky partner. I never quite thought about it that way before.
melissamuse
Mar. 29th, 2011 11:18 pm (UTC)
can you remain turned on by a woman who has absolutely no desire for physical violence? can you extinguish, forever, all fantasies of violent sex?
jdquintette
Mar. 30th, 2011 12:04 am (UTC)
Depends on what you mean by 'violent.' I could probably settle for 'rough.'

There's a certain spring-loaded resistance, an at least implied struggle, that needs to be there to make it hot for me. It's why I had to work so hard to have sex with my wife the last few years, before that petered out altogether.

can you extinguish, forever, all fantasies of violent sex?

I'm trying. Not much luck though.
melissamuse
Mar. 30th, 2011 12:07 am (UTC)
this is what i mean.... is rough not fundamentally about violence or is it about control?
jdquintette
Mar. 31st, 2011 01:37 pm (UTC)
Probably control. All men, regardless of how they may deny it, have a misogynist side. A part of us hates and fears women. Domination probably assuages this in some ways.

I'm not sure if most women truly understand how helpless men sometimes feel in the face of their power. Pretty much everything we want and need (some of it as much as we need oxygen) you're in a position to withold. Love, sex, nurturing. The kind of comfort and care only a woman can give us.

All my life, I've thought of myself as a man who genuinely likes women, not just for sex but in general. I'm not one of those guys who want you to turn into a six pack and a smoke as soon as he's come, or gets bent out of shape if you won't 'come across' etc. I've had lots of female friends, even as a child. Some of these relationships were sexual, most were not. But I valued them all.

Since discovering my kinkyness, I've had that belief system shaken. I've endured treatment from women (particularly on Fetlife and the New Orleans Kink board) that I'd classify as genuinely hateful and abusive. The woman who "brought me out" kept a sex blog, where I got to read, from 3,000 miles away, about all the hot, kinky stuff I so desperately wanted to do with her, that she was doing with someone else. It was like being in hell.

I can see now how it's possible to genuinely hate women. To think of them as bitches and cunts, who hurt you and withold the things you need. Who call you a disgusting, loathsome creature. It's a really rotten place to even visit. I'm trying my best not to live there.
melissamuse
Mar. 31st, 2011 09:13 pm (UTC)
i do not believe all men have a misogynist side at all, no more than i believe all women hate men. i would argue that it isn't hard to see, though, how it is possible to genuinely hate men. ;)
but, i don't think it is about gender at all, but experiences. if you were gay, you may be saying the same of men.
you tend to paint women as these powerful control wielding creatures (not just in this post) and that can take your own dominant tendencies to a very dark place. it is clear you've had some bad experiences with women, but try not to generalize them all. look at where you have had those experiences - on the internet for heavens sake.
if you do not find comfort in your own skin, you are unlikely to find comfort against someone else's.
jdquintette
Apr. 1st, 2011 01:28 am (UTC)
The shadow self
i do not believe all men have a misogynist side at all, no more than i believe all women hate men. i would argue that it isn't hard to see, though, how it is possible to genuinely hate men. ;)

Really? I believe all human beings have a dark, shadow self, and if you don't integrate it in some way, then THAT can take you to a dark place. Some of the most vile, racist acts come from people who insist they are "not racist," because they refuse to acknowlege their own lesser selves. Since their hearts are always pure, how could anything they do be racist lol?

In the same way, I'm sure some of my fiercest attackers on fetlife and New Orleans Kink would deny hating men, even though it was obvious I was just a convienent surrogate punching bag for every bastard who'd ever cheated on them or broken their hearts. Setting up sock-puppet profiles (WeWatchyou was one I remember) to threaten me with castration if I ever showed my cheating face at a NOBLE event was, I'm sure, justifiable as protecting the "community" from the preditory presence of a 'married cheater.' If you twist your logic into a pretzle there's always a way to justify cruel and hateful actions. And as a man, I don't really have feelings anyway, not in the nurturing, loving sense that women have them, just a relentless, probing dick lol. I guarantee you this is how they justified this stuff.

i don't think it is about gender at all,

Strongly disagree. It's very much about gender. Men and women view sex, it's negotiations and practicalities, through different ends of the telescope. If we didn't I'd be able to "solve" my problems tonight by putting on some tight shorts and a tank top and tottering down to the nearest sports bar and getting drunk and letting some woman take advantage of me.:-P
melissamuse
Apr. 1st, 2011 07:04 am (UTC)
Re: The shadow self
i suppose folks can all have a dark shadow side... i've not found mine yet and i really like to think it isn't the case. i don't know about the vileness of racism... one can certainly argue that the worst acts have been committed by those who are blatant with their racism - skinheads, KKK, jobbiks, etc! but i could argue that color blinded people are the true dangers. :)
some women do find married men that cheat terrible and are greatly offended by it. it is understandable given the norms of this twisted monogamous society.

i still stand that it isn't about gender. a male equivalent of a hot woman in tight shorts can get laid tonight too. don't use the gender issue to make your case unique :) it is an awfully large assumption to assume all men and women view sex differently. i've been told often i have a "male" way of viewing sex... i don't think so - i have a "people" way of viewing it and people are different, across all genders.
jdquintette
Apr. 1st, 2011 05:58 pm (UTC)
Re: The shadow self
I still stand that it isn't about gender. a male equivalent of a hot woman in tight shorts can get laid tonight too

Well, this is certainly good news. Could you tell me then which bar you would recommend I go to, to sit alone and drink and await the hordes of horny women that will, according to you, accost me and try to hustle me into thec sack?


I'm also delighted that the vast majority of the porn and prostitution industry, which exist to service the needs of men who can't obtain what they want through legitimate interpersonal negotian, will now me rendered redundant.


All sarcasm aside, can you genuinely not see what I'm driving at here?
melissamuse
Apr. 1st, 2011 08:21 pm (UTC)
Re: The shadow self
if you consider yourself the male equivalent of a hot woman in tight shorts, i suppose just about any "meat market" bar will do. i don't do the bar scene so don't know.
you seem to think ANY woman can walk into a bar and get lucky.you seem to feel women don't have the same problem you do.
it isn't the case. this is why i say it isn't about gender. maybe you have in your mind those old roles that don't exist so much anymore.
jdquintette
Apr. 1st, 2011 09:12 pm (UTC)
Re: The shadow self
you seem to think ANY woman can walk into a bar and get lucky.

Yes. Take any woman, ANY woman (well, maybe not Barbara Bush the elder) and put her in a tank top and miniskirt, and sit her in a sports bar somewhere and drink all night by herself. I will bet you five hundred dollars that by the end of the night there'll be a dozen guys fighting each other over her.

Put me in there by myself and I'll walk out alone at the end of the night.

maybe you have in your mind those old roles that don't exist so much anymore

Things have changed in my lifetime, sure, but I don't think they've changed as much as you seem to think. Much of the change has been cosmetic.

In some ways, for instance, my students are more sexually conservative than my generation, and in some respects less so. They're more accepting of things like gay marriage than boomer are. But they're very conservative when it comes to "hooking up." The worst thing you can call a college girl at Tulane is a 'slut,' a word there really is no male equivalent for.
melissamuse
Apr. 1st, 2011 09:29 pm (UTC)
Re: The shadow self
poor kids - someone needs to give them a copy of The Ethical Slut.
again, we run in entirely different circles. yours is too trapped in societal and gender roles for my taste.

i still don't think the any woman in a miniskirt philosophy is true. it would need to be tested. some women look horrible in miniskirts and other choices almost always abound. there are always women in bars that no one would fuck. people go home alone all the time. you aren't the only one.
jdquintette
Apr. 1st, 2011 08:06 pm (UTC)
Re: The shadow self
it is an awfully large assumption to assume all men and women view sex differently.

It's not a matter of how we "view" sex, but how the culture does. You may very well treat sex "like a man" in the context of an already negotiated sexual encounter, but there would be severe, negative consequences if you did that in your larger life. If that were not the case, I wouldn't have been sitting by myself pulling my own pud for the last seven momths, I would have simply gone out and allowed some woman like you to pick me up in a bar. I mean, normally, I'm not that kind of of a boy, but these are desperate times lol.

I can't even believe I'm making this argument here, it seems so bloody obvious. No matter how much you or I might wish it to be different, that's the way it is in a patriarchal culture. Men want sex, women withold it, unless successfully negotiated otherwise. You can go into a bar tonight, and sit there and do absolutely nothing, and men will try to pick you up. I can sit there till hell freezes over, and women will not approach me.
melissamuse
Apr. 1st, 2011 08:25 pm (UTC)
Re: The shadow self
ok, i see where some of your issues are - you are stuck in societal roles, both in gender and sexuality. the times, they have a changed darlin'. i'd have no severe consequences because i approach sex different than the female role you and society subscribes to.

we clearly run in different circles. yours sounds a bit antiquated, but perhaps you need to explain this idea to me in specifics - what exactly about sex do you think men and women view differently? how do you think that is coded into gender?
jdquintette
Apr. 1st, 2011 01:15 am (UTC)
if you do not find comfort in your own skin, you are unlikely to find comfort against someone else's.

So are you saying that the comfort and care and regard of other human beings has nothing to do with your sense of self? I understand the dangers in giving too much of this away to the wrong people, but surely you can understand my desire to have this part of myself accepted by SOMEBODY other than my right hand.

These conversations are often frustrating for me, because I'm always having them with people who HAVE that kind of acceptance. Maybe there should be some kind of support group for male doms who aren't getting any or something lol. At the risk of sounding like a broken record, I have nobody, NOBODY in my life who welcomes and accepts my kinky side, including my own wife. Try and at least imagine what that's like; not only the culture at large, but even the person closest to you wants nothing to do with your sexuality. At least if I were a gay man, I could go to a gay bar. Where is there for people like ME to go?

melissamuse
Apr. 1st, 2011 07:23 am (UTC)
i am saying you are defining yourself by your gender, you sexuality and your kink. is that all you are? i am saying you need to comfort and care for yourself first. it comes across loud and clear how much you dislike yourself right now... how "disgusting" you think you are. i am saying that isn't at all attractive to a potential partner. you need to find some modicum of comfort with your own self and identity. you don't have that and i am not so sure it is just because you aren't getting sex.
you have to accept yourself first and i don't think you have. how can you say have nobody when you are able to vent, at the very least, here and people - friends - respond and support you. you are not the only one in the world with the desires you have.

reconciling our desires within ourselves in this lifestyle is not always easy; i think particularly so for dominant men. i do know what it is like - i lived in the proverbial closet for many years when i was married, cheating here and there, trying to find what i *needed*. i know many people who went through the same thing. they survived - you will too!

i don't know what your experience was with NOBLE - if it was just one person there who upset and threatened you, but i can guarantee you that there were other married people there in the past. (i was married myself when i first began attending a group in another city). there is also baton rouge, the coast, etc....
jdquintette
Apr. 1st, 2011 06:12 pm (UTC)
i am saying you are defining yourself by your gender, you sexuality and your kink. is that all you are? i am saying you need to comfort and care for yourself first.

Of course not, I've just been laboring under the notion, oft expressed on the online discussion boards that are pretty much all I know of the kink "community," that there are unpleasant consequences to not getting these needs met. You yourself would seem to be evidence to the contrary and believe me, I'm doing my level best to live like you say you do. I would love not to be tortured by these desires. It a huge distraction, not to mention no fucking fun at all.

I don't know what your experience was with NOBLE - if it was just one person there who upset and threatened you

Initially I was just flamed on discussion boards. But when I persisted in posting (and in some cases told people to mind their own goddam beeswax, a not unreasonable thing to say, I thought) I started to receive abusive PMs. When I complained to the board administrator they stopped, for a while. Then I got sockpuppet profiles threatening me with things like castration if I showed up at any public event (one was called WeWatchYou). When I complained to fetlife admin, they would disappear.

I was told "we know who you are." I was told that they were protecting the 'integrity of the community' from cheaters like me. I was told I better not show my face, and I was threatened with physical injury. I was threatened with outing, in PMs that included my real name.

I was never too concerned about the physical threats, because I doubt very much if any of these people had the balls to follow through. If they'd tried it would have been a big fucking mistake on their part, believe me. But I found it appalling that people who'd never even met me would go to that kind of trouble to make me miserable. I still have a hard time believing it. And it sure turned me off "the community" which I guess was the idea.

Oh, and they used to send me "fake out" PMs. Like "hi, checked out your profile and you sound interesting," just enough to get my hopes up, then, down at the bottom, some variation of "but I wouldn't fuck you if you were the last man on earth, you disgusting, cheating scum."

A year or so of that can do bad things to your head.
melissamuse
Apr. 1st, 2011 08:28 pm (UTC)
when was this? with NOBLE?
jdquintette
Apr. 1st, 2011 09:13 pm (UTC)
Not NOBLE as an organization, but some people within noble, yeah. I only know them by their Fetlife usernames, but somebody called Spicysub was one of my prime antagonists.
jdquintette
Apr. 1st, 2011 08:07 pm (UTC)
I'm sorry if I seem harsh or testy online. That's not how I am in real life.

I'm in a lot of pain here.
( 20 comments — Leave a comment )

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